ASIC Transcripts & Commentary

ASIC Transcripts & Commentary

ASIC Conversation:

I spoke to an ASIC employee. Below are basic notes. (I have indicated how many minutes into the Audio.)

 

“Look for Breach of law or misconduct

We can look at the national credit code ”

5 mins.                  “ANZ bank Risk modelling, they base profit margin

Formula, so precious to them. proprietary information, They will not give it to you, worth millions, have to take you to court,”

7 min.                    “Why do want the form? oh ok”

9 mins                   Lots of intrusive questions

Wanted to know all details of default. “I need to know all these things”

11 mins                 Wanted to know about solicitor and other parties who were advising me

Did not want me scammed. Afraid there are a lot of scammers, “ASIC is well aware of bad eggs in the industry. Cant take them to court without enough evidence because its public money. Only take on actions if we are confident of winning. Won 80-90% of cases. Only take on cases of misconduct. Only if we know we can win.

Finite resources. ” Lots of excuses for ASIC doing nothing.

15mins.                I said I like ASIC. I said ASIC should warn bad eggs that ASIC will take action. Fines are weak.

18 mins                 He wants me to send him my LAF, wants history asked for emails. He would not send me an email with a list of what requested.  “I don’t want to be in a position telling you what to do.” ???

20           “I will read legislation. What they are required to provide you, whether we have jurisdiction. What documents they are required to give. Probably … ” assuming and making excuses for ANZ.

22           “there is very little we can do for you. I don’t think under the legislation we are going to assist you at all. I suspect that they wrote commercially sensitive information about why they would … or would not?”

23           “on the application form they will write stuff that is commercially sensitive referring to a formula based on their model. Probably what they are withholding. You have a snowballs chance in hell of getting that.”

24           I thought ASIC should write a nice letter to ANZ and tell them to provide the info to me. “The answer is no. I will look at legislation and talk to specialist asic people. I strongly suspect the answer will be no. We are not going to ask ANZ.”

I said ask under privacy. He said FIO???  (Why did he not tell me of my rights?)

27           a month, maybe longer I may not contact you. Goodbye Paul.

 

 

 

 

Conversation with ASIC 6-3-14

red is check audio for accuracy.

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: Um, you’ve got a few minutes to talk at the moment?

Paul Herman: Yes, I do.

ASIC: Right, well first of all, I just want to explain to you that I’ve just received your file and I will be the person who will access the issues that you’ve raised; so I just want to very quickly explain the process. So what we do is, we look at the issue that people raise and we assess whether there is any breaches in the law that we regulate. We got to see, you know, according to facts we apply them to the legislation that we administer, um, if there is a breach in the law, there are a number of things we can do, you know, we can try and get compliance from the bank etcetera or we could refer to a specialist team and then might do or take another action or even take legal action etcetera. Of course it’s all based on the evidence and whether there is actually misconduct. Now, with your statement, with what you said in your report of misconduct, I just wanted to ask you a few quick questions and I’ll need some documents as well. So, can you clarify, I’m assuming that, what kind of loan did you, was it a home loan that you applied for? What kind of loan was it you apply for?

Paul Herman: Yeah, I think it as an investment loan. So there was a house loan, there was a number of them because I bought a number of number of investment properties.

ASIC: Oh, hang on, so how many loans did you actually ask for? Was it one or…?

Paul Herman: It was um, it was called a Break Free Loan so you could add on other loans to the loan, to the package. It was a loan package.

ASIC: Okay, Right. Okay, so it wasn’t a line of credit?

Paul Herman: Um, yeah. There was, two of them were lines of credit and the other two were housing loans, I think.

ASIC: Okay, alright. So two loans of credit and the other two, investment, like for an investment property.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Investment home loan. Okay, cool, that’s fine. Now, one very important thing is, did you end up getting the loan or did they reject you.

Paul Herman: Yeah, I got the loan

ASIC: You did get the loan?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Oh, okay, alright. So, what’s the problem then?

Paul Herman: Um…Well…I…Um…The content…What the problem was is that I had difficulty making the payment and then um…I went to the bank and I said, Look can you just give me a holiday for a bit and then they um…um…So, on the payment…and then, we ended up arguing back and forth, then I asked them, could I have the loan application form? So, they sent me the loan application form and some of the pages were missing, and then they also said they weren’t going to give me some of the pages because they were um…commercial inconfidence…um…what was it called?

ASIC: Commercially Sensitive

Paul Herman: Commercially Sensitive, then I said, well how commercially sensitive are they after six years or 5 years and they wouldn’t budge on that and then I said to them…I write to them and I said, look this page is missing and they didn’t reply . So then, I went to the Ombudsman and then the Ombudsman said that they don’t have the power to require that the ANZ provide documents, you know, loan application document. Then I said well, shall I complain to ASIC, we just sort of discussed that and it seemed like a good idea to complain to ASIC.

ASIC: Alright, that’s fine. Okay, well look, that changes things, if you actually got the loan, then yes, you know, but potentially we can look at the issue that you raised because it might fall under the national credit code. My impression from what you’d written was that you never got the loan and except that was the case I know it would be inappropriate for you because you probably wouldn’t have had the jurisdiction.

Paul Herman: Okay, I apologize but then I don’t know why I was [inaudible]

ASIC: That’s okay, it’s alright. Okay, so, (um) look, let me explain one thing about the information that you have etcetera and then this might sort of appease you a little bit but nonetheless, it doesn’t mean that I’m not going to look at the concern that you raised etcetera but often what it means by commercially sensitive information is for example, right, when you apply for…when you or anyone for a loan. Alright?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: They have risk modeling and what they do is they have, basically, actually, some kind of formula for when they will lend that money and when they won’t lend that money.

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: And that particular formula and the risk modeling criteria is very commercially sensitive information because that’s what they grade to base their profit margins on.

Paul Herman: Oh

ASIC: They say, Paul Herman has applied for a $500,000 loan. Here’s what he said about his income, his assets, his extra expenses. And throw those figures into our formula and reject it or whatever…whatever it comes up with.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: That information, I can assure you, you can try till you’re blue in the face and they’re not going to get that for you.

Paul Herman: Really?

ASIC: You wanted it, you’d have to take it to court. They’re not going to…because that’s worth millions of dollars to them. It’s proprietary information, it’s how they make money.

Paul Herman: Okay?

ASIC: Nothing personal to you, it’s not about why we rejected [Paul Herman] (05:37).

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: It’s about a formula that we’re not going to give to anyone because if it falls in anyone’s hands, NAB CBA etcetera would know how we do our profiling and how our profit margin would work out.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: So it’s not, you know, so I’m just trying to tell you that it’s probably nothing personal, and that’s why they redacted it because it’s that kind of stuff that they would not give out under any circumstances and I’m quite confident that should you ever did file it, they would say, take it to court.

Paul Herman: Okay, so you…

ASIC: It’s so precious to them, they’re not going to hand it over.

Paul Herman: Okay, so if you did go to court, would they be required to provide the information then?

ASIC: Look, from my experience you know as…and I can’t give you legal advice etcetera but from my experience, it’s very rare that court would have…you know, get them to hand over commercially sensitive information.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: If it wasn’t privy to your life.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: This equally you’re going to have if you actually got the loan.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: The court might just say. Well, what [Mr. Herman] (06:38). What are you complaining about? You actually got the loan.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Um, you know what I mean, I’m not trying to be [vicious] (06:44) about it but the court might realistically say, well, you got the loan, get over it. Um why do you really need their…so, I guess my question is, why do you want the application form.

Paul Herman: Okay, It’s um…

ASIC: Why did you want the full one because at least they’ve given you parts of it

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Why do you want the full…Why do you need it?

Paul Herman: What I’ve seen so far is there is a number of discrepancies and I believe that there is maladministration in…

ASIC: In what sense? I know you’ve said that but in what sense do you think there’s maladministration?

Paul Herman: Well, um…Look, I’m still getting legal advice about that…

ASIC: Oh, Okay.

Paul Herman: Yeah, I was advised to get the loan application forms and to check…um…to check them…um…because…

ASIC: Hang on, so, bear with me, so, your lawyer basically said, get the application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Okay, so your lawyer is looking at it right now?

Paul Herman: Um…

ASIC: Or the redacted version…

Paul Herman: Yeah, look, it’s…I’ve um…it’s not only a lawyer, look I…I’ve also connected up with some other groups. It’s just that um, like I was in financial difficulties, I had a serious illness um…and uh…I was just trying to negotiate with um ANZ. The biggest problem for me really was, is that um the property market has a bit of cycle to it, so it has up periods and down periods.

ASIC: Yes

Paul Herman: And I was just…As I was going through the property market cycle, I was just struggling. So…

ASIC: In what sense? How did that…

Paul Herman: Financially.

ASIC: How did that affect you…I’m a bit confused…What do you…Do you have a number of property that you rent out or something? (08:33).

Paul Herman: Yeah, um yeah. And I was also selling some properties and it was just really difficult to sell.

ASIC: Oh, I see. Okay, right. So, basically, without prying into information of course, you’ve got to forgive me, what I’m gathering is that you deal with property, as in, you buy and sell, rent, etcetera…

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And in that process, over the years when…during the upswing and downswing, you’ve been in some sort of situations where obviously you haven’t been able to sell for what you needed to sell for, equally there’s been a cash flow issue and that’s affected it and…so can I ask also, in terms of the default you said, right? … “I had difficulty in making the payment”, so you said you had difficulty in making the payment. So, if you’d also technically been in default with the ANZ and has that been sorted out? Are you in default? What…

Paul Herman: Yeah, I’m in default.

ASIC: Okay, and how much by?

Paul Herman: Uh, Look. It’s about 18 months now.

ASIC: Okay, right. So how much do they allege that you owe?

Paul Herman: Uh, well, I think the total loans are getting close to half a million dollars.

ASIC: And how much are you in arrears for?

Paul Herman: Uh, look, I’m not sure. It’s 18 month worth.

ASIC: 18 months’ worth. So how much do you pay per month? Are you required to pay per month?

Paul Herman: Yeah, look. I think it was about two and a half thousands.

ASIC: Okay, cool, alright. So, that issue, tell me what’s happening with that because…are you asking assistance for that? Or is that something you are taking care of by yourself? Because I need to know all these things.

Paul Herman: Look, I’m taking care of that myself. Basically, I’m negotiating with ANZ as best I can. I’m expecting things to improve this year. So I’m expecting that um…I should be able to negotiate something this year.

ASIC. Fine

Paul Herman: The market’s picking up so that’s really great.

ASIC: Okay, so basically. It’s for my notes, I’m just writing, um, you’re taking care of it, that issue is solved um, negotiating with ANZ, repayment time, etcetera

Paul Herman: Yeah, look I will be. I made them an offer they weren’t happy with it. That was last year so I’m going to…It’s my intention to go back and make another offer but um…Look, it’s just uh…I was advised to get the loan application document and they weren’t very cooperative; so that’s why I came to you.

ASIC: And you did say, you were still going to speak to a lawyer and some other parties. Who are the other parties you’re speaking to?

Paul Herman: Well uh, look, I’ve just had a look on the internet and there’s a number of websites that offer help and support…

ASIC: Before you go there, let me just…are you sure they are legit etcetera, are they charging you money because I don’t want you to be scammed by someone who’s offering services that perhaps…

Paul Herman: You’re too late with that, cos honestly, there’s a lot of scammers out of there. They…

ASIC: Yeah, you know, when people say that to me, I get a bit afraid, I think that. Let’s hope you don’t be scammed by someone that well will help you with debts and all that kind of stuff. So…

Paul Herman: The other thing is that I don’t know why ASIC doesn’t pull a tide of rain on some of those people because they really are bad.

ASIC: Well look, I can assure you we’re well aware of many bad eggs in the industry but it’s always about the sufficiency of evidence before we can do something. People perceive that well ASIC doesn’t anything or two for the bad guys but what we do in the background in terms of…we spend sometimes months and months doing investigation on whatever it is but it’s always about sufficiency of evidence. If we can’t be confident that we’ll win in court, we can’t take it to court because we’re using public money.

Paul Herman: Yeah, sure.

ASIC: You know, there are some public advocates out there which I won’t mention that talk about ASIC inaction. It’s a government department, its tax payers money, we only take on action if we’re confident of winning. And, if we’re going to get laughed out of court, we’re not going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, [QCs] (12:46) etcetera. You get to that stage where the court says this is [fascicle] (12:49), go away ASIC.

Paul Herman: Yes.

ASIC: So, it’s always about evidence and I can assure you…you know, our commission makes, you know, you’re probably aware that there’s an inquiry right now into the operations of ASIC.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: You know, our chairman basically is safe. Out of…in the last year or two…out of I think it’s about…we have won 90% of our cases. Sure, in the media, we get a lot of fact on the ones we lose…the big ones that we lose. We’ve won about 80 – 90% of the litigation that we undertake.

Paul Herman: Yeah, look…

ASIC: Cos, we only take on stuff that we know that are real and with misconduct and we can prove it

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: I can assure you, we’ve seen lots, lots of cases where there is…we noted misconduct but we just can’t do anything because there’s not enough evidence to get successful prosecution.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: This is the problem.

Paul Herman: Look, I’m seeing some of the very strong criticism of ASIC and I thought it was a bit over the top, that’s just me personally and I thought it was unfair and I…I guess I’ve got a little bit of appreciation of how government departments work. You can’t do everything…

ASIC: And look it’s…you know, I actually have a lot of unsaid. ASIC is…you know, if you want a particular level of regulation, this is the kind of money that we need because we do you find ourselves short of resources. There’s only so much we can do and you know, like…and I’m still speaking personally from…I’ve come from a private enterprise, I used to work in a chartered accounting firm.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: People have this perception that oh well, you know, “public servants, what do you do?” I can assure you…I’m saying, this is complex, interesting work and sure, I may not be as stressed as I was in private practice but I can assure you we work bloody hard and…

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: And a lot of us genuinely believe that our job is to, you know, get rid of the bad eggs, alright?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Um, so, you know, we do a lot of work but it’s all about resources. If you’ve got a finite amount of money, you can’t chase the 1.3 million companies and the few million directors in Australia.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: It’s impossible for us to go after every bad person. There’s fuckin loads of them (14:52) and we know it.

Paul Herman: Yeah, look, I am…I am well aware that you work hard and you know, I think that…you know, my dealings with ASIC has been pretty good and I did actually make a submission to the senate and I was um, not as critical. I just…I actually said that you know, perhaps, ASIC should be better funded. I guess what I’d like you to…to see you doing is…I’d like to see ASIC giving some of the people in the industry a bit of a fright. You may not be taking them to court but just warning them that they need to tighten up their behavior.

ASIC: Yeah, well, its [interesting] you’d say that, the comments that our chairman made last week was that the problem with a lot of legislation that we administer is, the penalties are so weak.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: People do a cost benefit analysis and they work out it is better that to take on ASIC, lose and get a fine.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: than you know…because they’ve worked that it’s actually more beneficial financially to do the wrong thing.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Our chairman’s been saying that…you know, a huge part of the problem is…and it also makes perception. If people in the society think “well, sure, ASIC took people on, they got a $50,000 fine or if possible, an undertaking or 2 months probation” They think “that’s outrageous”. Well, the point is, that’s what the legislation said. We can only do, we can only impose penalty that the legislation poses. So, our argument has been, “we need to have stronger deterrent”. If we have much stronger deterrent like you know, 10, 20 years jail term for a serious fraud etcetera.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: People will think twice. If people keep getting feebly little penalty, people are going to do a cost benefit analysis and work out well it worth…we’re worth taking risks.

Paul Herman: That’s right

ASIC: So look at this, there are a number of things but you know, sure, it’s not really our job to dwell into those issues right now I think.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: It’s a specific issue but you know, and I’m not here to [discuss] (16:58) ASIC’s job because…I can assure you we well appreciate that there’s still something we can do better.

Paul Herman: Look, I think it’s all good and I think that uh…you’d probably end off better funded or the funding gets better targeted and I’m sure that It’d be good for ASIC and good for everybody because you know, obviously, your job is very important. You want to be protecting people against scammers and I think that um…

ASIC: Yeah, and then look, it’s in the interest of everyone here and I’m not just saying you know…cos you know, it’s also in the interest of ASIC if we get the bad eggs out.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: The more bad eggs that there are in the financial sector, the worse it would reflect on us.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: I can assure you that’s part of our commitment (17:41), you know, what we’re trying to do. But, look, you know, it’s an ongoing process. It’s…you know…and it’s…and unfortunately a lot of it is bad education. It’s about people, you know, also knowing their rights and doing [due diligence] (17:55). I’m not…I’m really not saying people like yourself don’t do that but there’s a lot of people that don’t. Um, if they don’t do that simple [due diligence for work, you should do something that’s actually good for you] (18:02).

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And I take a loan or is this a scam etcetera. So, the big part of our role is education and starting right from an early age, when you’re in school, we kind of educate kids about money management and you know, financial opinions etcetera. Check audio.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: So, yeah. It’s a…It’s a work in progress. Alright, so, with this, with this issue, I think…can you…so, I’d like you to send me an email.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: I want you to send me the actual loan…whatever loan application document they did actually send you. I…you know, [quite may be redacted, it seems…it seems that’s fine] (18:37). I want you to send that to me…

Paul Herman: Yeah, the only trouble is…

ASIC: I also to explain to me the history of this, you know…I want you to tell me, you know, that I applied for a loan on X date, this is the amount of the loan that I got, um, and I did…because of the, you know…and I’m involved in property marketing etcetera, because of the ups and downs, I did…and I’ve been in default and I am in default 18 months etcetera. I’m taking care of that issue myself.

Paul Herman: Um, can you, um just…would you, and is it possible to jot me an email with all of that and the other thing is…

ASIC: The reason I don’t want to do that is that I should not ever be in a position where I’m telling you to do anything.

Paul Herman: Okay, right. Okay, so…

ASIC: I don’t want to be seen to be feeding you information or you know…what I’m trying to say is, I don’t want you to be able to say “Paul, this is what you should say”.

Paul Herman: Okay, okay, if you just…

ASIC: [inaudible] good thing is I can always ask you that question but what I want you to do is tell me a story. I want you to tell me the story of the loan etcetera.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Yes sure you are in default etcetera but the main issue for you is that you want ASIC to [inaudible] is this you know, loan application.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: I want to be upfront with you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in them not giving you commercially sensitive information.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: You’re not going to be able to get it so that might [inaudible].

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: So that I will work out you know, in terms of what they’re required to provide you and then, first of all, whether you’ve got jurisdiction, whether this falls within a contract within the national credit code and if we do, what kind of documents are they required to give you. I’m quite sure they’re not required to give you information that would be commercially sensitive particularly when I could learn the actual application doc.

Paul Herman: Okay, um, I guess I’m very interested to see the missing pages in the loan application and I don’t know why they haven’t wanted to give them to me but it’s suspicious. That’s all.

ASIC: Yes, and as I said…as I explained. It’s probably things such as the com…the…this is why we rejected…or this is why not rejected, you didn’t get rejected, right? But this why Mr [Herman] (20:55) is only going to get $500,000 instead of $700,000 because according to the formula, this is what…do you understand?

Paul Herman: Yeah, It’s just…

ASIC: Things like that, and they are basically entitled not to give you that.

Paul Herman: Okay, that wouldn’t be on the loan application form now, would it?

ASIC: Um, well…It’s not the actual application form because you’re the one who submitted that application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: What I’m talking about is the reason why…isn’t that what you want? You don’t want the loan application form, you already have it, haven’t you?

Paul Herman: No, the thing is…is that um…

ASIC: Oh, hang on, so you submitted it, you didn’t keep a copy?

Paul Herman: Yeah, yeah. So, so, what happened is there was a broker. Um, he was an ANZ broker. Its ANZ mortgage solutions and um…

ASIC: Was he a broker for ANZ or he worked at ANZ?

Paul Herman: He was a broker for ANZ.

ASIC: Okay, yeah?

Paul Herman: Specializing in ANZ. Um, so that was one thing but any other information that you can get that’s applicable to my case that is great. I mean, if they won’t give commercially sensitive stuff, I guess I’ll have to weigh that but um…

ASIC: Look, I want to be upfront with you, I think there is very little we can do for you. I don’t think under the legislation that we are going to be able to assist you at all…on this issue in terms of…

Paul Herman: I would have thought that um the…

ASIC: The actual loan application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Right, that you asked for

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Alright, so…okay, so you didn’t keep a copy and therefore you said “I want the actual application form” right?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: So they sent it back to you but with pages missing.

Paul Herman: Yes?

ASIC: I suspect that what happened is that, on the actual loan application form, they write things such as commercially sensitive information about why on this particular issue “we are not going to be able to issue your loan for that, bla bla bla or how much etcetera. I suspect that’s what…look, let me look into that, I don’t know, I only see…

Paul Herman: It’s making me a little less. I mean, at this stage of the game that’s not really of any interest to me and if they…I mean, I don’t know why they would want to withhold it but uh…

ASIC: The reason you know, I’m trying to think that…that the reason they are withholding it from you is because on the application form, they will write things that are commercially sensitive such as applying a formula in terms of why you were rejected, you know, not rejected but you know, why you didn’t get a certain amount etcetera. They might comment on there about you based on their model.

Paul Herman: Right?

ASIC: It’s nothing personal, it’s simply there…

Paul Herman: Well I’m not going to take it personally honestly…

ASIC: Yeah, yeah, so what I’m trying to say is, probably…I don’t know…but that’s probably what they’re withholding from you.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Okay, and I am quite confident in saying that you’ve got snowballs chance in hell of getting that.

Paul Herman: Okay, well, uh, that’s really why I lodged a complaint with ASIC because I was…I wanted to see if you could write ANZ nicely and say “Please send the missing information” and uh…

ASIC: So, my initial thoughts on that is that the answer is no but I’m certainly not closing it down because it’s as I said, I don’t know that answer, um, I will look at the relevant legislation and I might need to speak to some [officials of other] (24:18) sections of ASIC as well.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: But I strongly suspect that the answer is going to be no. We’re not going to ask ANZ to do that because they are perfectly entitled not to give you that information.

Paul Herman: Okay, um, I thought under privacy laws that you’re allowed to request information that’s um…

ASIC: Um, look, you can properly…and once again, I’m not, I can’t give you legal advice…but you might want to think about, I don’t know, like um…First of all, I don’t even know if the freedom of information laws apply to private bodies like that.

Paul Herman: Probably not.

ASIC: Probably not. So, for example, we could make an FOI request to ASIC if we [knew that, that’s happening] (25: 00) etcetera. Right?

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: [inaudible] so, I’m not sure but you might want to think about the banking code of conduct.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: and see if that applies to your situation etcetera. Um, look, [the view of] (25: 14) things that I would consider that…as I said, my initial thought without having further research is that we’re not going to do that for you. We’re not going to be able…we’re not going to write to ANZ to ask to send your information because I’m quite confident that they don’t have to.

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: Alright, so, nonetheless, I will look into it.

Paul Herman: Okay, great. Sorry, I’ve forgotten your name.

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Sorry, what was your name again?

ASIC: So, you got a pen and paper?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Ritesh. [Spells it out]

Paul Herman: R

ASIC: I  T

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: E  S  H … Surname’s Patel [Spells it out]…My email address is riteshpatelasic [Spells it out]

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: .gov

ASIC: .au, .gov.au

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And my phone number is 0738674718.

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: So, I’d like you to send me that email.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: With the application form that they have sent you

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And I want you to send an email that gives me a story, explain what the issues are, what the problem is, etcetera and what you want ASIC to do. I know you’ve done that briefly already but I need a bit more details so that…and the reason I asked people to do that is so that I can see theyre not lost in translation (26: 41).

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Even though I’ve spoken about it with you and I’ve made quite detailed notes, it’s good to have it in writing from you so I can check it and yep, that’s what we spoke about, that’s what Mr. Herman spoke about, the main concern is…and then my job after that is to look at the legislation, look at the facts, see if there’s any breaches and see if we can take any action or if we can’t.

Paul Herman: Okay…Okay and you pronounced your Christian name [Pronounces Ritesh]. Is that right?

ASIC: That’s right

Paul Herman: Okay, great. Okay, thanks Ritesh…

ASIC: Yeah, and as I said, it generally takes about a month, sometimes longer, you know, if it is a complex issue or something noble etcetera. Um, I may not contact you again if I don’t need to but I think I probably will, will need to contact you because once I look into this I suspect I’m going to have some more questions for you.

Paul Herman: Okay.

ASIC: Nonetheless, the way you can help me is by giving a detailed account of what happened and what you want…

Paul Herman: Okay. Okay, thank you for that

ASIC: And we’ll take it from there and yeah, and I’ll contact you in future if I need to.

Paul Herman: Okay, thank you. Thank you Ritesh. Okay bye.

ASIC: No problem, bye.

 

 

 

Conversation with ASIC 8-4-14

 

 

Red is check audio for accuracy.

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: Um, you’ve got a few minutes to talk at the moment?

Paul Herman: Yes, I do.

ASIC: Right, well first of all, I just want to explain to you that I’ve just received your file and I will be the person who will access the issues that you’ve raised; so I just want to very quickly explain the process. So what we do is, we look at the issue that people raise and we assess whether there is any breaches in the law that we regulate. We got to see, you know, according to facts we apply them to the legislation that we administer, um, if there is a breach in the law, there are a number of things we can do, you know, we can try and get compliance from the bank etcetera or we could refer to a specialist team and then might do or take another action or even take legal action etcetera. Of course it’s all based on the evidence and whether there is actually misconduct. Now, with your statement, with what you said in your report of misconduct, I just wanted to ask you a few quick questions and I’ll need some documents as well. So, can you clarify, I’m assuming that, what kind of loan did you, was it a home loan that you applied for? What kind of loan was it you apply for?

Paul Herman: Yeah, I think it as an investment loan. So there was a house loan, there was a number of them because I bought a number of number of investment properties.

ASIC: Oh, hang on, so how many loans did you actually ask for? Was it one or…?

Paul Herman: It was um, it was called a Break Free Loan so you could add on other loans to the loan, to the package. It was a loan package.

ASIC: Okay, Right. Okay, so it wasn’t a line of credit?

Paul Herman: Um, yeah. There was, two of them were lines of credit and the other two were housing loans, I think.

ASIC: Okay, alright. So two loans of credit and the other two, investment, like for an investment property.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Investment home loan. Okay, cool, that’s fine. Now, one very important thing is, did you end up getting the loan or did they reject you.

Paul Herman: Yeah, I got the loan

ASIC: You did get the loan?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Oh, okay, alright. So, what’s the problem then?

Paul Herman: Um…Well…I…Um…The content…What the problem was is that I had difficulty making the payment and then um…I went to the bank and I said, Look can you just give me a holiday for a bit and then they um…um…So, on the payment…and then, we ended up arguing back and forth, then I asked them, could I have the loan application form? So, they sent me the loan application form and some of the pages were missing, and then they also said they weren’t going to give me some of the pages because they were um…commercial inconfidence…um…what was it called?

ASIC: Commercially Sensitive

Paul Herman: Commercially Sensitive, then I said, well how commercially sensitive are they after six years or 5 years and they wouldn’t budge on that and then I said to them…I write to them and I said, look this page is missing and they didn’t reply . So then, I went to the Ombudsman and then the Ombudsman said that they don’t have the power to require that the ANZ provide documents, you know, loan application document. Then I said well, shall I complain to ASIC, we just sort of discussed that and it seemed like a good idea to complain to ASIC.

ASIC: Alright, that’s fine. Okay, well look, that changes things, if you actually got the loan, then yes, you know, but potentially we can look at the issue that you raised because it might fall under the national credit code. My impression from what you’d written was that you never got the loan and except that was the case I know it would be inappropriate for you because you probably wouldn’t have had the jurisdiction.

Paul Herman: Okay, I apologize but then I don’t know why I was [inaudible]

ASIC: That’s okay, it’s alright. Okay, so, (um) look, let me explain one thing about the information that you have etcetera and then this might sort of appease you a little bit but nonetheless, it doesn’t mean that I’m not going to look at the concern that you raised etcetera but often what it means by commercially sensitive information is for example, right, when you apply for…when you or anyone for a loan. Alright?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: They have risk modeling and what they do is they have, basically, actually, some kind of formula for when they will lend that money and when they won’t lend that money.

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: And that particular formula and the risk modeling criteria is very commercially sensitive information because that’s what they grade to base their profit margins on.

Paul Herman: Oh

ASIC: They say, Paul Herman has applied for a $500,000 loan. Here’s what he said about his income, his assets, his extra expenses. And throw those figures into our formula and reject it or whatever…whatever it comes up with.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: That information, I can assure you, you can try till you’re blue in the face and they’re not going to get that for you.

Paul Herman: Really?

ASIC: You wanted it, you’d have to take it to court. They’re not going to…because that’s worth millions of dollars to them. It’s proprietary information, it’s how they make money.

Paul Herman: Okay?

ASIC: Nothing personal to you, it’s not about why we rejected [Paul Herman] (05:37).

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: It’s about a formula that we’re not going to give to anyone because if it falls in anyone’s hands, NAB CBA etcetera would know how we do our profiling and how our profit margin would work out.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: So it’s not, you know, so I’m just trying to tell you that it’s probably nothing personal, and that’s why they redacted it because it’s that kind of stuff that they would not give out under any circumstances and I’m quite confident that should you ever did file it, they would say, take it to court.

Paul Herman: Okay, so you…

ASIC: It’s so precious to them, they’re not going to hand it over.

Paul Herman: Okay, so if you did go to court, would they be required to provide the information then?

ASIC: Look, from my experience you know as…and I can’t give you legal advice etcetera but from my experience, it’s very rare that court would have…you know, get them to hand over commercially sensitive information.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: If it wasn’t privy to your life.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: This equally you’re going to have if you actually got the loan.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: The court might just say. Well, what [Mr. Herman] (06:38). What are you complaining about? You actually got the loan.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Um, you know what I mean, I’m not trying to be [vicious] (06:44) about it but the court might realistically say, well, you got the loan, get over it. Um why do you really need their…so, I guess my question is, why do you want the application form.

Paul Herman: Okay, It’s um…

ASIC: Why did you want the full one because at least they’ve given you parts of it

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Why do you want the full…Why do you need it?

Paul Herman: What I’ve seen so far is there is a number of discrepancies and I believe that there is maladministration in…

ASIC: In what sense? I know you’ve said that but in what sense do you think there’s maladministration?

Paul Herman: Well, um…Look, I’m still getting legal advice about that…

ASIC: Oh, Okay.

Paul Herman: Yeah, I was advised to get the loan application forms and to check…um…to check them…um…because…

ASIC: Hang on, so, bear with me, so, your lawyer basically said, get the application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Okay, so your lawyer is looking at it right now?

Paul Herman: Um…

ASIC: Or the redacted version…

Paul Herman: Yeah, look, it’s…I’ve um…it’s not only a lawyer, look I…I’ve also connected up with some other groups. It’s just that um, like I was in financial difficulties, I had a serious illness um…and uh…I was just trying to negotiate with um ANZ. The biggest problem for me really was, is that um the property market has a bit of cycle to it, so it has up periods and down periods.

ASIC: Yes

Paul Herman: And I was just…As I was going through the property market cycle, I was just struggling. So…

ASIC: In what sense? How did that…

Paul Herman: Financially.

ASIC: How did that affect you…I’m a bit confused…What do you…Do you have a number of property that you rent out or something? (08:33).

Paul Herman: Yeah, um yeah. And I was also selling some properties and it was just really difficult to sell.

ASIC: Oh, I see. Okay, right. So, basically, without prying into information of course, you’ve got to forgive me, what I’m gathering is that you deal with property, as in, you buy and sell, rent, etcetera…

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And in that process, over the years when…during the upswing and downswing, you’ve been in some sort of situations where obviously you haven’t been able to sell for what you needed to sell for, equally there’s been a cash flow issue and that’s affected it and…so can I ask also, in terms of the default you said, right? … “I had difficulty in making the payment”, so you said you had difficulty in making the payment. So, if you’d also technically been in default with the ANZ and has that been sorted out? Are you in default? What…

Paul Herman: Yeah, I’m in default.

ASIC: Okay, and how much by?

Paul Herman: Uh, Look. It’s about 18 months now.

ASIC: Okay, right. So how much do they allege that you owe?

Paul Herman: Uh, well, I think the total loans are getting close to half a million dollars.

ASIC: And how much are you in arrears for?

Paul Herman: Uh, look, I’m not sure. It’s 18 month worth.

ASIC: 18 months’ worth. So how much do you pay per month? Are you required to pay per month?

Paul Herman: Yeah, look. I think it was about two and a half thousands.

ASIC: Okay, cool, alright. So, that issue, tell me what’s happening with that because…are you asking assistance for that? Or is that something you are taking care of by yourself? Because I need to know all these things.

Paul Herman: Look, I’m taking care of that myself. Basically, I’m negotiating with ANZ as best I can. I’m expecting things to improve this year. So I’m expecting that um…I should be able to negotiate something this year.

ASIC. Fine

Paul Herman: The market’s picking up so that’s really great.

ASIC: Okay, so basically. It’s for my notes, I’m just writing, um, you’re taking care of it, that issue is solved um, negotiating with ANZ, repayment time, etcetera

Paul Herman: Yeah, look I will be. I made them an offer they weren’t happy with it. That was last year so I’m going to…It’s my intention to go back and make another offer but um…Look, it’s just uh…I was advised to get the loan application document and they weren’t very cooperative; so that’s why I came to you.

ASIC: And you did say, you were still going to speak to a lawyer and some other parties. Who are the other parties you’re speaking to?

Paul Herman: Well uh, look, I’ve just had a look on the internet and there’s a number of websites that offer help and support…

ASIC: Before you go there, let me just…are you sure they are legit etcetera, are they charging you money because I don’t want you to be scammed by someone who’s offering services that perhaps…

Paul Herman: You’re too late with that, cos honestly, there’s a lot of scammers out of there. They…

ASIC: Yeah, you know, when people say that to me, I get a bit afraid, I think that. Let’s hope you don’t be scammed by someone that well will help you with debts and all that kind of stuff. So…

Paul Herman: The other thing is that I don’t know why ASIC doesn’t pull a tide of rain on some of those people because they really are bad.

ASIC: Well look, I can assure you we’re well aware of many bad eggs in the industry but it’s always about the sufficiency of evidence before we can do something. People perceive that well ASIC doesn’t anything or two for the bad guys but what we do in the background in terms of…we spend sometimes months and months doing investigation on whatever it is but it’s always about sufficiency of evidence. If we can’t be confident that we’ll win in court, we can’t take it to court because we’re using public money.

Paul Herman: Yeah, sure.

ASIC: You know, there are some public advocates out there which I won’t mention that talk about ASIC inaction. It’s a government department, its tax payers money, we only take on action if we’re confident of winning. And, if we’re going to get laughed out of court, we’re not going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, [QCs] (12:46) etcetera. You get to that stage where the court says this is [fascicle] (12:49), go away ASIC.

Paul Herman: Yes.

ASIC: So, it’s always about evidence and I can assure you…you know, our commission makes, you know, you’re probably aware that there’s an inquiry right now into the operations of ASIC.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: You know, our chairman basically is safe. Out of…in the last year or two…out of I think it’s about…we have won 90% of our cases. Sure, in the media, we get a lot of fact on the ones we lose…the big ones that we lose. We’ve won about 80 – 90% of the litigation that we undertake.

Paul Herman: Yeah, look…

ASIC: Cos, we only take on stuff that we know that are real and with misconduct and we can prove it

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: I can assure you, we’ve seen lots, lots of cases where there is…we noted misconduct but we just can’t do anything because there’s not enough evidence to get successful prosecution.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: This is the problem.

Paul Herman: Look, I’m seeing some of the very strong criticism of ASIC and I thought it was a bit over the top, that’s just me personally and I thought it was unfair and I…I guess I’ve got a little bit of appreciation of how government departments work. You can’t do everything…

ASIC: And look it’s…you know, I actually have a lot of unsaid. ASIC is…you know, if you want a particular level of regulation, this is the kind of money that we need because we do you find ourselves short of resources. There’s only so much we can do and you know, like…and I’m still speaking personally from…I’ve come from a private enterprise, I used to work in a chartered accounting firm.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: People have this perception that oh well, you know, “public servants, what do you do?” I can assure you…I’m saying, this is complex, interesting work and sure, I may not be as stressed as I was in private practice but I can assure you we work bloody hard and…

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: And a lot of us genuinely believe that our job is to, you know, get rid of the bad eggs, alright?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Um, so, you know, we do a lot of work but it’s all about resources. If you’ve got a finite amount of money, you can’t chase the 1.3 million companies and the few million directors in Australia.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: It’s impossible for us to go after every bad person. There’s fuckin loads of them (14:52) and we know it.

Paul Herman: Yeah, look, I am…I am well aware that you work hard and you know, I think that…you know, my dealings with ASIC has been pretty good and I did actually make a submission to the senate and I was um, not as critical. I just…I actually said that you know, perhaps, ASIC should be better funded. I guess what I’d like you to…to see you doing is…I’d like to see ASIC giving some of the people in the industry a bit of a fright. You may not be taking them to court but just warning them that they need to tighten up their behavior.

ASIC: Yeah, well, its [interesting] you’d say that, the comments that our chairman made last week was that the problem with a lot of legislation that we administer is, the penalties are so weak.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: People do a cost benefit analysis and they work out it is better that to take on ASIC, lose and get a fine.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: than you know…because they’ve worked that it’s actually more beneficial financially to do the wrong thing.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Our chairman’s been saying that…you know, a huge part of the problem is…and it also makes perception. If people in the society think “well, sure, ASIC took people on, they got a $50,000 fine or if possible, an undertaking or 2 months probation” They think “that’s outrageous”. Well, the point is, that’s what the legislation said. We can only do, we can only impose penalty that the legislation poses. So, our argument has been, “we need to have stronger deterrent”. If we have much stronger deterrent like you know, 10, 20 years jail term for a serious fraud etcetera.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: People will think twice. If people keep getting feebly little penalty, people are going to do a cost benefit analysis and work out well it worth…we’re worth taking risks.

Paul Herman: That’s right

ASIC: So look at this, there are a number of things but you know, sure, it’s not really our job to dwell into those issues right now I think.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: It’s a specific issue but you know, and I’m not here to [discuss] (16:58) ASIC’s job because…I can assure you we well appreciate that there’s still something we can do better.

Paul Herman: Look, I think it’s all good and I think that uh…you’d probably end off better funded or the funding gets better targeted and I’m sure that It’d be good for ASIC and good for everybody because you know, obviously, your job is very important. You want to be protecting people against scammers and I think that um…

ASIC: Yeah, and then look, it’s in the interest of everyone here and I’m not just saying you know…cos you know, it’s also in the interest of ASIC if we get the bad eggs out.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: The more bad eggs that there are in the financial sector, the worse it would reflect on us.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: I can assure you that’s part of our commitment (17:41), you know, what we’re trying to do. But, look, you know, it’s an ongoing process. It’s…you know…and it’s…and unfortunately a lot of it is bad education. It’s about people, you know, also knowing their rights and doing [due diligence] (17:55). I’m not…I’m really not saying people like yourself don’t do that but there’s a lot of people that don’t. Um, if they don’t do that simple [due diligence for work, you should do something that’s actually good for you] (18:02).

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And I take a loan or is this a scam etcetera. So, the big part of our role is education and starting right from an early age, when you’re in school, we kind of educate kids about money management and you know, financial opinions etcetera. Check audio.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: So, yeah. It’s a…It’s a work in progress. Alright, so, with this, with this issue, I think…can you…so, I’d like you to send me an email.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: I want you to send me the actual loan…whatever loan application document they did actually send you. I…you know, [quite may be redacted, it seems…it seems that’s fine] (18:37). I want you to send that to me…

Paul Herman: Yeah, the only trouble is…

ASIC: I also to explain to me the history of this, you know…I want you to tell me, you know, that I applied for a loan on X date, this is the amount of the loan that I got, um, and I did…because of the, you know…and I’m involved in property marketing etcetera, because of the ups and downs, I did…and I’ve been in default and I am in default 18 months etcetera. I’m taking care of that issue myself.

Paul Herman: Um, can you, um just…would you, and is it possible to jot me an email with all of that and the other thing is…

ASIC: The reason I don’t want to do that is that I should not ever be in a position where I’m telling you to do anything.

Paul Herman: Okay, right. Okay, so…

ASIC: I don’t want to be seen to be feeding you information or you know…what I’m trying to say is, I don’t want you to be able to say “Paul, this is what you should say”.

Paul Herman: Okay, okay, if you just…

ASIC: [inaudible] good thing is I can always ask you that question but what I want you to do is tell me a story. I want you to tell me the story of the loan etcetera.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Yes sure you are in default etcetera but the main issue for you is that you want ASIC to [inaudible] is this you know, loan application.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: I want to be upfront with you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in them not giving you commercially sensitive information.

Paul Herman: Right.

ASIC: You’re not going to be able to get it so that might [inaudible].

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: So that I will work out you know, in terms of what they’re required to provide you and then, first of all, whether you’ve got jurisdiction, whether this falls within a contract within the national credit code and if we do, what kind of documents are they required to give you. I’m quite sure they’re not required to give you information that would be commercially sensitive particularly when I could learn the actual application doc.

Paul Herman: Okay, um, I guess I’m very interested to see the missing pages in the loan application and I don’t know why they haven’t wanted to give them to me but it’s suspicious. That’s all.

ASIC: Yes, and as I said…as I explained. It’s probably things such as the com…the…this is why we rejected…or this is why not rejected, you didn’t get rejected, right? But this why Mr [Herman] (20:55) is only going to get $500,000 instead of $700,000 because according to the formula, this is what…do you understand?

Paul Herman: Yeah, It’s just…

ASIC: Things like that, and they are basically entitled not to give you that.

Paul Herman: Okay, that wouldn’t be on the loan application form now, would it?

ASIC: Um, well…It’s not the actual application form because you’re the one who submitted that application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: What I’m talking about is the reason why…isn’t that what you want? You don’t want the loan application form, you already have it, haven’t you?

Paul Herman: No, the thing is…is that um…

ASIC: Oh, hang on, so you submitted it, you didn’t keep a copy?

Paul Herman: Yeah, yeah. So, so, what happened is there was a broker. Um, he was an ANZ broker. Its ANZ mortgage solutions and um…

ASIC: Was he a broker for ANZ or he worked at ANZ?

Paul Herman: He was a broker for ANZ.

ASIC: Okay, yeah?

Paul Herman: Specializing in ANZ. Um, so that was one thing but any other information that you can get that’s applicable to my case that is great. I mean, if they won’t give commercially sensitive stuff, I guess I’ll have to weigh that but um…

ASIC: Look, I want to be upfront with you, I think there is very little we can do for you. I don’t think under the legislation that we are going to be able to assist you at all…on this issue in terms of…

Paul Herman: I would have thought that um the…

ASIC: The actual loan application form.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Right, that you asked for

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Alright, so…okay, so you didn’t keep a copy and therefore you said “I want the actual application form” right?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: So they sent it back to you but with pages missing.

Paul Herman: Yes?

ASIC: I suspect that what happened is that, on the actual loan application form, they write things such as commercially sensitive information about why on this particular issue “we are not going to be able to issue your loan for that, bla bla bla or how much etcetera. I suspect that’s what…look, let me look into that, I don’t know, I only see…

Paul Herman: It’s making me a little less. I mean, at this stage of the game that’s not really of any interest to me and if they…I mean, I don’t know why they would want to withhold it but uh…

ASIC: The reason you know, I’m trying to think that…that the reason they are withholding it from you is because on the application form, they will write things that are commercially sensitive such as applying a formula in terms of why you were rejected, you know, not rejected but you know, why you didn’t get a certain amount etcetera. They might comment on there about you based on their model.

Paul Herman: Right?

ASIC: It’s nothing personal, it’s simply there…

Paul Herman: Well I’m not going to take it personally honestly…

ASIC: Yeah, yeah, so what I’m trying to say is, probably…I don’t know…but that’s probably what they’re withholding from you.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Okay, and I am quite confident in saying that you’ve got snowballs chance in hell of getting that.

Paul Herman: Okay, well, uh, that’s really why I lodged a complaint with ASIC because I was…I wanted to see if you could write ANZ nicely and say “Please send the missing information” and uh…

ASIC: So, my initial thoughts on that is that the answer is no but I’m certainly not closing it down because it’s as I said, I don’t know that answer, um, I will look at the relevant legislation and I might need to speak to some [officials of other] (24:18) sections of ASIC as well.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: But I strongly suspect that the answer is going to be no. We’re not going to ask ANZ to do that because they are perfectly entitled not to give you that information.

Paul Herman: Okay, um, I thought under privacy laws that you’re allowed to request information that’s um…

ASIC: Um, look, you can properly…and once again, I’m not, I can’t give you legal advice…but you might want to think about, I don’t know, like um…First of all, I don’t even know if the freedom of information laws apply to private bodies like that.

Paul Herman: Probably not.

ASIC: Probably not. So, for example, we could make an FOI request to ASIC if we [knew that, that’s happening] (25: 00) etcetera. Right?

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: [inaudible] so, I’m not sure but you might want to think about the banking code of conduct.

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: and see if that applies to your situation etcetera. Um, look, [the view of] (25: 14) things that I would consider that…as I said, my initial thought without having further research is that we’re not going to do that for you. We’re not going to be able…we’re not going to write to ANZ to ask to send your information because I’m quite confident that they don’t have to.

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: Alright, so, nonetheless, I will look into it.

Paul Herman: Okay, great. Sorry, I’ve forgotten your name.

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: Sorry, what was your name again?

ASIC: So, you got a pen and paper?

Paul Herman: Yeah

ASIC: Ritesh. [Spells it out]

Paul Herman: R

ASIC: I  T

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: E  S  H … Surname’s Patel [Spells it out]…My email address is riteshpatelasic [Spells it out]

Paul Herman: Yeah?

ASIC: [inaudible]

Paul Herman: .gov

ASIC: .au, .gov.au

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And my phone number is 0738674718.

Paul Herman: Okay

ASIC: So, I’d like you to send me that email.

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: With the application form that they have sent you

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: And I want you to send an email that gives me a story, explain what the issues are, what the problem is, etcetera and what you want ASIC to do. I know you’ve done that briefly already but I need a bit more details so that…and the reason I asked people to do that is so that I can see theyre not lost in translation (26: 41).

Paul Herman: Yeah.

ASIC: Even though I’ve spoken about it with you and I’ve made quite detailed notes, it’s good to have it in writing from you so I can check it and yep, that’s what we spoke about, that’s what Mr. Herman spoke about, the main concern is…and then my job after that is to look at the legislation, look at the facts, see if there’s any breaches and see if we can take any action or if we can’t.

Paul Herman: Okay…Okay and you pronounced your Christian name [Pronounces Ritesh]. Is that right?

ASIC: That’s right

Paul Herman: Okay, great. Okay, thanks Ritesh…

ASIC: Yeah, and as I said, it generally takes about a month, sometimes longer, you know, if it is a complex issue or something noble etcetera. Um, I may not contact you again if I don’t need to but I think I probably will, will need to contact you because once I look into this I suspect I’m going to have some more questions for you.

Paul Herman: Okay.

ASIC: Nonetheless, the way you can help me is by giving a detailed account of what happened and what you want…

Paul Herman: Okay. Okay, thank you for that

ASIC: And we’ll take it from there and yeah, and I’ll contact you in future if I need to.

Paul Herman: Okay, thank you. Thank you Ritesh. Okay bye.

ASIC: No problem, bye.